Gladys Berejiklian Icac hearing live updates: former premier denies ‘feelings’ stopped her from reporting Daryl Maguire | Australia news

Scott Robertson wants to keep pursuing this topic. But he wants to do so in private, away from the public eye, at least in the first instance.

He says he is attempting to balance what is in the public interest with the protection of private matters. This inquiry has had to walk a fine line in that respect.

The commission goes into private hearing mode, with lawyers for Sarah Cruickshank and Gladys Berejiklian allowed to stay in the room.

We’ll be back with you shortly.

Robertson again asks for an answer to the “question I asked you about 10 minutes ago”.

He asks Berejiklian about her claim that it wouldn’t have mattered politically whether the relationship was ongoing in July 2018. She replies:

In terms of the political controversy, that’s for others to determine. But I’ve been very open to this body that it was on again, off again, of different intensity.

The former premier continues to say she can’t recall whether she told Cruickshank that the Maguire relationship was ongoing or historical:

I remember telling her how close we were. The time that we spent together.

She says she didn’t intend to convey that the relationship was over but suggests she may have said she had more free time when she was treasurer, compared with when she was premier.

Robertson is pressing Berejiklian on her claim that it would have made no difference, politically, if her relationship with Maguire was ongoing or historical in July 2018, when he was caught up in the Icac scandal:

You’re not seriously suggesting, are you, that the question of the timing of the relationship was a completely irrelevant matter in relation to the issue of political risk that you and I have discussed?

Berejiklian said she had a close relationship with Maguire, regardless of the timing, and “either way that was a political consideration”.

Robertson brings her back to the question.

Berejiklian says she made it clear to Cruickshank that the relationship was close.

Gladys Berejiklian describes the period of Daryl Maguire’s 2018 Icac appearance as “very scary” and says she kept racking her mind over whether she knew anything that she needed to report to Icac.

She came to the conclusion that she didn’t but also that she needed to tell her chief of staff Sarah Cruickshank, she says:

Politically, she had a right to know. And I imparted that information to her. But having said that, because of what had transpired that day, I did question what I knew and what I didn’t know, and pored over, in my head, was there anything that I needed to do. And I came to the conclusion that there wasn’t.

Berejiklian says Cruickshank told her to “not have anything more to do with him”.

The former premier says she did not follow that advice.

She says she told Cruickshank that the relationship was “off again, on again”.

She can’t remember telling Cruickshank that the relationship was “historical”:

I left her in no doubt that I was close to Mr Maguire, the exact words or what we spoke about, I can’t confirm. That’s just my recollection.

Scott Robertson:

Did you lie to Ms Cruickshank regarding the timing of the relationship?

Berejiklian:

No that’s just my recollection … I can only tell you what I recollect, and I did tell her about the closeness of the relationship.

Commissioner Ruth McColl suggests that, at that point in time, it was a crucial fact that she was still engaged in a relationship with Maguire, which would have been “politically explosive”.

Berejiklian said it would have been explosive, whatever the timing of the relationship:

I can’t remember all the details of our conversation but I made it known that I was close to him, it was on again, off again, I tried to convey as much as I could.

The hearing has resumed.

We’re now hearing about Gladys Berejiklian’s actions after forcing Daryl Maguire to resign in July 2018. That took place after his appearance at Icac, where the nature of his involvement in the Canterbury city council scandal was revealed.

Berejiklian called Sarah Cruickshank, her chief of staff, who was on leave, on 13 July 2018. We’ve previously heard that this call was when Cruickshank first learnt of Berejiklian’s relationship with Maguire:

I just wanted to make sure that she knew that whatever had occurred that day was a complete shock to me, and I just felt like I needed to share how close we were.

Why didn’t she share it earlier?

Berejiklian said she was shocked at what had transpired.

Scott Robertson asks whether Berejiklian told Cruickshank because she was concerned that if the relationship became public, the premier would also be caught up in the “cloud” surrounding Maguire?

Berejiklian:

It wasn’t my main concern.

Robertson:

Was it at least a consideration?

Berejiklian:

We’ve taken a short adjournment after a lengthy line of questioning about Gladys Berejiklian’s decision not to report Daryl Maguire to Icac.

Let’s take stock of what we learned this morning:

• Berejiklian was pressed, repeatedly, on why she did not tell Icac about her conversations with Maguire in July 2018, once she realised he had been lying to her about the nature of his involvement in a “money-making scheme” involving property developers and the Canterbury city council.
• She said she “never suspected him of being corrupt” and “did not join the dots” between his appearance at Icac and other questionable land dealings he had spoken to her about. She said she assumed he had been caught up in something unintentionally and that the commission’s investigation had not yet run its course.
• Berejiklian denied that her failure to report Maguire was influenced by her feelings for him or her fear of being enveloped in the scandal herself. She said she would have reported him if she had any information or suspicion that he was engaged in corrupt conduct. She repeatedly asked: “What would I have reported?”. Counsel assisting Scott Robertson suggested she could have reported her conversations with Maguire and told the commission she believed him innocent of wrongdoing.
• The commission heard that Maguire, after being summoned to Icac in 2018, urged the premier to get a “private phone”. The premier said she did not do so. Maguire also told her he had “more info and data than them”.
• Berejiklian forced Maguire to resign from the party and his parliamentary secretary position after his appearance at Icac in July 2018, when the nature of his involvement in the Canterbury council scandal was revealed. Despite that, she maintained that she had not suspected him of corrupt conduct. She said only that there was a “cloud” surrounding his activities at the time.

We’ll be back shortly.

Scott Robertson asks whether Gladys Berejiklian didn’t report to Icac because she feared that she would be enveloped in the “cloud” surrounding Daryl Maguire.

She replies:

No, because I knew in my heart of hearts that not only was I incapable of doing anything that I felt was wrong, but I’m always someone who stands up for my actions and there was nothing I was concerned with.

Was her failure to report Maguire influenced by her feelings for him?

No, because I sacked him.

Was it influenced by any aspect of their relationship?

It was based on the fact that I didn’t feel I knew anything.

Gladys Berejiklian says what Daryl Maguire had told her during the phone call of 5 July 2018 was “insignificant” and that she wouldn’t have “retained” it:

The question I asked myself was did I know anything? … and the answer very strongly in my mind is that I didn’t know anything about what this commission was looking at … I chose not to be interested or involved in his personal matters.

Scott Robertson says Berejiklian could have said all of that in a report to Icac. She could have told the commission that she believed Maguire when he protested his innocence.

Berejiklian says she didn’t have any information of value.

Robertson suggests to her that Maguire had told her other details, not related to the then inquiry into Canterbury council, that she could have given to Icac.

He raises the Badgerys Creek land deals that Maguire had discussed with Berejiklian.

Berejiklian:

I did not join the dots, I did not think there was anything untoward.

She said she wouldn’t have recalled or retained that information, because she didn’t think there was any wrongdoing.

I didn’t suspect him of corrupt conduct. That to me was, completely, not the person I knew, not the person I trusted.

Commissioner Ruth McColl presses on this point. Why, after Daryl Maguire’s testimony to Icac, didn’t Gladys Berejiklian report her earlier phone conversation, during which she warned him against engaging with “dodgy” associates?

Berejiklian:

With all due respect commissioner, what would I have reported?

McColl says she could have reported all of the detail that Maguire had given her about his associations and interactions with the Canterbury city council and property developers.

Berejiklian:

But what he told me was that he wasn’t doing anything wrong.

Scott Robertson asks her how her belief that he had not done anything wrong could be true, given she removed him from his parliamentary role and issued a public statement condemning him.

Berejiklian says she knew only that Maguire was under a “cloud”.

Robertson reminds Berejiklian that, during her 52-minute phone call with Maguire before his Icac appearance, she repeatedly insisted she believed him, trusted him and therefore did not think he was engaged in wrongdoing.

Had that not “exploded” when his later Icac appearance showed to Berejiklian that he was lying, Robertson asks.

The former premier again says that she only thought Maguire had been caught up in something unintentionally and had associated with people engaged in wrongdoing:

I certainly did not know of anything, if I had I would have reported something. What came to fruition on the 13th [July] was on public display.

Scott Robertson gets to the nub of this line of questioning. Did you suspect Mr Maguire had been engaged in corrupt conduct, he asks.

Gladys Berejiklian:

She says she thought Maguire had been caught up in something unintentionally:

I didn‘t put it past him that he was caught up in something that he wasn’t totally aware of … I never suspected him of being corrupt.

Given that Berejiklian removed him from his role and put him on the crossbench and issued a public statement saying Maguire had “let down his constituents”, hadn’t she at least suspected he was engaged in corrupt conduct?

She says she knew he was under “a cloud” but said the Icac investigation, Operation Dasher, still had to run its course.

Robertson asks Berejiklian whether she should have told Icac everything she knew about Maguire at this point:

I had nothing to report. There was nothing that I knew, nothing that I remembered, nothing that I thought was of any relevance.